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Thread: Question of Importance!

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    Exclamation Question of Importance!

    Howdy Java Programmers!

    I would like to ask you about a problem, you could even call it a challenge.

    I have been playing First Person Shooters for a long time and I have come across Hackers, Cheaters, Bug users..
    ..they go by many names, but that isnīt the relevant question.

    Those people usually gets banned sooner or later. The real problem in my oppinion are the people using Macros to gain an advantage.

    Macros can make you a god of aiming and quickscoping by just writing some simple code. And letting the script do all the dirty work for you. All you have to do is run around and actually aim a tiny little bit.

    I think you should do all the dirty work yourself rather than letting a program do it for you.

    --

    So the question at hand is if anyone in here thinks its possible to prevent this kind of problem for lets say Tournaments?

    I would suggest some kind of program that logs the use of Macros or just Scripts in general that does run in the background.

    But Iīm sure there is a bunch of smart programmers out there that can give me some kind of suggestion.

    I know very little about programming but I do know the basics, which means I know there is a lot of magic to be pulled when it comes to programming.

    Iīm holding some tournaments in a game where macros is a serious issue.


    If someone can code a secure anti-macro program and show me the code I would be very very happy. (In PM so it is a secure as possible)


    If you are generous to give me the idea about how this could be pulled of but not actually code it yourself, I would also be very happy.



    Thank you all for your time, god bless!


  2. #2
    Super Moderator pbrockway2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question of Importance!

    Sorry, I don't play these games so my opinion is overvalued at 2c. But my comments might bump the thread...

    First, I would question whether this is possible. The server in such a game merely responds to input and has no way of knowing by what process the input was generated. Now it ought to be possible to rewrite the code for the game so that user movements and actions are recorded for later (or realtime) analysis. (called "instrumenting" the code) If you have a known body of both human and macro game playing then statistical techniques could be used to distinguish between them. This seems to me to be a *huge* amount of work and would only be effective for as long as it takes the bad guys to develop more effective macros: ones that look more human while still maintaining an advantage.

    So I would raise the question: are the rules of a game ever enforceable by technical means, or does a playing a game *presume* some level of community where cheating is considered "beyond the pale" and where players do not cheat because to do so would ruin the game? Cryptographers have come up with protocols whereby fairness in "games" like elections can be enforced. But this requires considerable cost and effort. So the question would be better posed as asking, for some particular game, whether such enforcement is worth the price.

    The question seems to have wider application in a world where one player uses almost total espionage to "instrument" the world and employs the technical means of assassination and rendition to deal with those who offend against its rules.

    Secondly, are macros such a bad thing? There is a long history of games being played between pieces of code. (eg those descended from Crobots.) And a history of traditionally human player games being played against software opponents. (eg the Chinook program was placed 2nd in the US Checkers nationals in 1990. The American Checkers Federation conservatively refused to allow the program to compete for a national title leading Marion Tinsley - who had finally found a worthy opponent - to resign his title as World Champion.)

    Perhaps you could organise a tournament for macros, thereby allowing their authors to gain the kudos of writing the best macro without spoiling the game for other players.

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    AntiMacros (August 9th, 2013)

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    Default Re: Question of Importance!

    I canīt argue with the fact that you put some really good points out there.

    But at some degree there has to be some kind of "line of fairness". Why do you think they forbid the use of anabolic steroids not so long ago?
    Competitive sports should be embraced by everyone who compeet. You should not use drugs just to gain an advantage. Those who use Macros and Bots are just the same, it is like a drug they use to become better(not literally a drug).

    Donīt you want the people to be fair, civilized and equal? Donīt you think those people who actually use Macros to gain an advantage should follow the rules? I believe in competitive play, I donīt believe in those who use 3rd party programs and I do not think they even believe in themselves. I can guarantee you that a player who is a real professional player is a happy player, someone who just downloaded a macro on the other hand is not a happy player.

    The professional player had put a lot of time and effort into his gameplay.

    The guy who downloaded something didnīt.

    You see the difference?

    And you were talking about the big process of actually being able to notice if someone used macros or not.
    But what if my community were to give them some kind of program (with their consent ofcourse).


    Letīs say we are having a tournament on "saturday 4th july" or whatever and then the players who want to participate and win prizes can actually do so but only if they want to follow our terms of commitment.

    They would only have the program activated while they are playing. The program running can then log their actions or just remove their ability to use some known macro buttons. It should be possible right?

    A macro is an amazing tool.
    It is just like a gun, itīs not a bad invention just because it kill. Letīs just say there has to be a bad human present to actually be able to manipulate this gun into killing.

    The other thing you mentioned about organising a tournament for macros. Iīm pretty sure that they would have had plenty of fun there IF it the case was that they actually wrote the macros themselves which I highly doubt(maybe some does).

    The thing is that I am really passionate about the FPS genre, it canīt get much more realistic than that.

    Also thank you for the history lessons, you can never reject knowledge.

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    Super Moderator pbrockway2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question of Importance!

    Forgive me if I don't respond at length. It never was my intention to sidetrack your completely reasonable technical question by raising the view that cooperative behaviour *presumes* a level of solidarity and that any ersatz solidarity created by enforced rules is costly and fragile.

    I completely agree that cheaters will wreck the game for those of you that want to play it. And I sympathise.

    There are plenty of game playing types here who can comment more knowledgeably than I can. Also, have you tried posting on game playing forums? I imagine this sort of problem is commonplace and people ought to be able to advise both on the technical and social measures that you might employ.

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    AntiMacros (August 9th, 2013)

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    Default Re: Question of Importance!

    you could pack the game with an anticheat like XTrap or make your own similar one...x-trap doesnt let you open stuff it thinks could be a cheat(its used on a few games like sword2 and such it even thought skype was a cheat lol) but really if people want to cheat bad enough they will find a way that works

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    AntiMacros (August 9th, 2013)

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    Default Re: Question of Importance!

    Thank you both for your response and I would just like to point out that I gave up on the search because clearly just as you said derekxec, if people want to cheat they will indeed find a way to do it one way or another. Which makes it very difficult for me since I have a very limited knowledge of programming and security meassurement. (No chance to outsmart a hacker that is smarter than me.)

    I really enjoyed discussing this with you pbrockway2 and hopefully soon mankind will be able to make actual Robots that can get programmed with perhaps something similar to the macro and even do our dirty work or simply play sports/play with us, that would be a truely wonderful view.

    GO Science!

    Also just to put the dot over the I, greatful for the advice about going to another forum but sadly I feel like I wonīt get much help unless I am actually someone who is posting frequently (on game forums). Most game forums that I come across always tries to put the "hacking" posts in the shade. For whatever the reason, I feel like I wonīt be getting lucky on any gaming forum because of just that reason, Game Admins or Forum Moderators who doesnīt want to give shame to their game basically just removes or moves the posts. Happend plenty of times when I try to bring up questions of importance that will bring some light to the game but is a problem most game developers believe is not something that can be fixed so they make sure people dont get to know about "macros/chams/hacks" or whatever weīre talking about.


    I thank you from the bottom of my heart, youīve been a blessing. I wish you all the best of future endevours and PROgramming.


    Take care, and thanks again.

    May this thread R.I.P

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